I used to post a lot more on KWML theory before...was having some more pondering on it, so here's a thought. Nothing novel, just another way of explaining Dr. Paul's theory...want to bounce it off people....

KingsQueens & Lovers are heavy in motherly energy....they have more well-being....it's gained through doing assertiveness (getting needs met).
Warriors & Magicians are heavy in fatherly energy...they have more confidence....it's gained through doing courage (taking action).

Could it be said that K&L influence inward in selves/others...while W&M influence outward into world?

Also, is it perhaps necessary to differentiate between the energies they can give versus the energies that they feel?

If someone met me (a king...with some lover), they might say I'm high in nurturing energy...but that does NOT translate to me having assertiveness. In the past, I was very nurturing, but no one would describe me as assertive. I'm guessing there's some kind of a corollary to warriors/magicians and courage?

While I know the formula and I totally understand that it's accurate and well-functioning and use it in daily life, I feel like there's some little disconnect in my brain to fully understanding it on a deeper level. And I think the disconnect is most likely in semantics.

Maybe something like: being assertive leads to getting needs met. Getting needs met leads to feeling nurtured. A K&L have a stronger need for feeling nurtured. See, it's almost the same explanation...except that here nurture is described as a need

Not sure what the W&M corollary be, though? For W/M, being courageous leads to taking action. Taking action leads to feeling confident. W&M have a stronger need to feel confident.

But then to solve my disconnect, we'd need to be able to relate that explanation to why each has more motherly and fatherly energies. Something like: IF the KWML temperament has a full tank of the self-esteem energy that it responds to most strongly (or has a stronger need for), then the person of that temperament will also transmit a correlating energy to others.


Does that work? Any holes you guys see?

Really Interesting angle.

I have some thoughts on part of your question.

Kings and lovers have more nurturing energy to call on, as a reserve. So at times when needs aren't being met, they can handle it better.

Warriors and magicians have more confident energy to call on. So when they suffer a job loss, break-up etc, they have more confidence in their reserve tanks to draw on.

So it's not that K&L's are 'better' at (or have a natural disposition to) being assertive, they just have more motherly energy to draw on when their needs aren't being met. Similarly, W&M's aren't 'more' courageous, they just have more confidence to draw on at times when their confidence takes a hit from external forces.

Make sense?

I agree with Ant.

As a King, I tend to "wake up in the morning" full of well-being as long as there is no external stress present, but I need to constantly do courage to feel confident. Warriors and Magicians tend to just be naturally confident without having to do anything, but need to be actively assertive to feel nurtured (e.g. get a massage).

I think Kings and Lovers can also get into more trouble with depression. It is almost like since they are not used to being assertive, when they do get some anger they are less likely to know how to deal with it. Likewise for Warriors and Magicians - they may not know exactly how to deal with an anxiety issue, and tend to be more impulsive in response.

zoltan wrote:I agree with Ant.

As a King, I tend to "wake up in the morning" full of well-being as long as there is no external stress present, but I need to constantly do courage to feel confident. Warriors and Magicians tend to just be naturally confident without having to do anything, but need to be actively assertive to feel nurtured (e.g. get a massage).

I think Kings and Lovers can also get into more trouble with depression. It is almost like since they are not used to being assertive, when they do get some anger they are less likely to know how to deal with it. Likewise for Warriors and Magicians - they may not know exactly how to deal with an anxiety issue, and tend to be more impulsive in response.

LIKE

You have no idea how much I needed to get that sorted out in my mind..
I think the doc needs to get this stuff in the next version of the material , as up until now I really had trouble making sense of it fully.

Dude great way of explaining it.

So, the distinction is how much of the action step (assertiveness or courage) one needs to do in order to get either well-being or confidence. Even though I'm a King, I never put that together since I think I don't have much well-being b/c of stress and general lower self-esteem...so don't know what it's like waking up full of well-being.


And as far as relating that to the type of energy each projects, I guess it doesn't necessarily matter how the self-esteem is doing...Kings/Lovers can still be nurturing and Warriors/Magicians can still be...well, what's the word for their energy...(I feel like if we say Confidence, it's mixing terms)

Also, the Wiki flip flops terms a little bit...a little cleaning up for it might make it better. I think at one point it says warriors are better at being assertive or something...which confuses me because I thought that was a trait more for Kings/Lovers....or are Warriors/Magicians just better at doing both (assertiveness AND courage)...since they're both actions at require confidence...aah circles.

Well , relating to this subject .. can young warriors be relatively unconfident with other more confident warrior friends ?
It felt like the case in the first spiderman movie , where his best friend was a warrior and so was he.

What would you say of such a condition ?

Zanther wrote:Also, the Wiki flip flops terms a little bit...a little cleaning up for it might make it better. I think at one point it says warriors are better at being assertive or something...which confuses me because I thought that was a trait more for Kings/Lovers....or are Warriors/Magicians just better at doing both (assertiveness AND courage)...since they're both actions at require confidence...aah circles.

DP has said that Warriors and Magicians tend to be more assertive. They are definitely more outspoken and take action for what they want, though I am not sure whether this is the same as being Assertive in the Anger Map. Perhaps others can clarify here. If I look up "assertive" in a dictionary that sounds a lot like a Warrior, and possibly a Magician, to me. Maybe here "assertive" is the opposite of "nurturing".

DannyZB wrote:Well , relating to this subject .. can young warriors be relatively unconfident with other more confident warrior friends ?
It felt like the case in the first spiderman movie , where his best friend was a warrior and so was he.

Some warriors are more confident than others, some Kings more nurtuting than others, and so on. We all have different levels of well-being and confidence. You can be anywhere on the circular diagram of KWML - a Warrior is just someone who is more left-brained, and more confident than nurturing. How much confidence depends on the individual.

A really unconfident Warrior might just be impulsive all the time. They may appear confident (taking action externally), but inside have little confidence or self-esteem.

zoltan wrote:Likewise for Warriors and Magicians - they may not know exactly how to deal with an anxiety issue, and tend to be more impulsive in response.

Yes I've noticed this, specifically in two women I know- one a magician and one a warrior. I only got to know them better over the summer. Before they seemed very confident. The warrior a total go-getter career woman, the magician just full of confident/creative energy in socialising (which I found very appealing, but that's another story...).

After spending a bit more time with them alone, it turned out they both had anxiety 'conditions' which they had medication for. They also act quite impulsively through 'partying'/drinking a fair bit. With KWML on the mind, it struck me that such outwardly confident people were dealing quite poorly with their anxiety issues. So yes, what you say makes a lot of sense. They perhaps do not know how to deal with their anxiety since they are not used to doing courage, since confidence would normally naturally come. Interestingly, when I KWML'd the magician and told her she had a very confident personality, she said that everyone thinks that, but it's a front. But I certainly don't believe this is a front in a narcissistic sense.

How much do you think this relates to character growth and boundaries?

I would say it has everything to do with boundaries..

My guess would be the warrior in the example is having a hard time using lovery traits in doing courage..
You have to remember courage is doing the right thing, and with just warriorly energy and without some observing ego and common sense she may have a hard time doing courage with her energy

Ant wrote: think Kings and Lovers can also get into more trouble with depression. It is almost like since they are not used to being assertive, when they do get some anger they are less likely to know how to deal with it. Likewise for Warriors and Magicians - they may not know exactly how to deal with an anxiety issue, and tend to be more impulsive in response.

Until I read these posts I thought I had been the only one having trouble understanding "nurturing energy/assertiveness skill" vs. "confident energy/courage skill" and how it relates to KWML archetypes. I too agree that "warriors/magicians" seem to be better at both energies because of their ability to take action more quickly. However I suppose what we don't see is what if behind the "social mask." Perhaps unhealthy warriors see masculinity as being diminished by letting their need for wellbeing show and so feel isolated because no one understands them on a deeper level. Perhaps Kings/Lovers feel less threatened in their masculinity by opening up their vulnerabilities. So I could see where walls are more dominant in one case and holes more dominant in the other. So unhealthy warriors/magicians have more initial success with women due to confidence but need to add doors/access to nurturing later to keep intimacy growing. While unhealthy kings/lovers have to really struggle to get mystery and attraction to build in a woman due to so many holes through which nurturing/intimacy is shared too quickly so that the woman loses attraction.

zoltan wrote:After spending a bit more time with them alone, it turned out they both had anxiety 'conditions' which they had medication for. They also act quite impulsively through 'partying'/drinking a fair bit. With KWML on the mind, it struck me that such outwardly confident people were dealing quite poorly with their anxiety issues. So yes, what you say makes a lot of sense. They perhaps do not know how to deal with their anxiety since they are not used to doing courage, since confidence would normally naturally come. Interestingly, when I KWML'd the magician and told her she had a very confident personality, she said that everyone thinks that, but it's a front. But I certainly don't believe this is a front in a narcissistic sense

This helps to clear up my confusion over magicians! I fell for a woman who appeared to be very confident, very social and a lot of laughs. I am older but maybe some things are universal here. I felt more empowered when I was around her and could feel so much good energy as we talked about so many random things. But she also let her guard down with me and shared that "secretly I don't like people." I think she was trying to say that she feels obligated to be the social person to keep her friendships and yet it is very demanding of her time trying to "please every one." She would often work a 12 hour shift and go out with the girls afterward because she said she didn't want to be "kicked off the island (social list)." The thing I began to notice was her "need to pour a drink" socailly when she was off work. It made her even more funny and zanny but I began to worry she was a functional alcoholic. I see now that she must have had "tremendous anxiety" even though outwardly confident and this was her impulsiveness coming out.